Tyro

Mildly Menacing Medic
Hello. I am a frequent player of the Skial Freak Fortress 2 server. I have played Freak Fortress for several years among many communities, but this one has been one of the better ones that seems to accept input and feedback. I apologize if this post does not follow some format or guidelines (I could not find any), but I felt it was necessary to make an account and write this out. I would like to suggest something that I believe would be beneficial to the game's health.

Firstly, I admit my bias as I am a long time Demo main. I have the most hours put in him, most items with him, and enjoy everything about his play-style. It would be wrong of me to not mention this, as this does present some interest on my part. Even so, I believe that these changes would benefit the class as a whole, who from my experience has one of the lowest play-rates on the server. Hopefully my knowledge on the class can rather help explain how the current state of the class in FF2 is lackluster.

The truth of the matter is simply that the Demoman is not rewarded like other classes are for being competent. Sniper can sit back in the safety of the rafters and rack up damage, Soldier can deal easier damage and move around the map with much more ease, and the Spy can press a button to chunk a boss and get out without being noticed most of the time. These are just a few comparisons, but these classes are typically thought to require some form of competency to play well and to top the leaderboards. A Demoman player, however, is not rewarded for his competency in any form with considerably less options for safety, escape, and utility.

The Demoman has two main play-styles - one that relies on stickies, and one that relies on a shield. If the Demoman plays with stickies, he is not rewarded the luxury of mini-crits on taunt for his traps and has to rely purely on either the boss's stupidity or the lower quality maps in order to get any damage. Sticky-spamming deals minimal damage (as it should), so the Demoman is regulated to a more defensive style of play that revolves around bait. The shield play-styles offer a little more aggression, but has a much worse payoff than a class such as the Spy for putting themselves in arguably worse danger (in the form of a loud yell and being in-your-face). I understand that these both have high possibilities of dealing damage, but the gamble never seems to be worth it when a Soldier or Spy can deal much more damage than you can with much more freedom of play-style. The main thing that can unite these play-styles and offer ways to obtain damage to the Demoman through competency is the Grenade Launcher.

Demoman's stock Grenade Launcher, the love of my life, deals a simple 100 damage for landing a direct pipe. Pipebombs are, in my opinion, considerably harder to land on the boss than any other weapon, and yet you are not properly rewarded for doing so. If you were to be a competent Demoman player and managed to land half of your total clip (10 pipes) on a boss, you would only deal 1000 damage. If that player were to get taunt mini-crits (Stock Launcher gets 135 mini-crit damage) still only 1350 damage. All while having to truly aim pipes at the boss, which comes with its variety of factors. For comparison, a Sniper body-shot deals 150 damage and can be done from insane ranges well beyond the boss's target range with minimal aim on the Sniper's part. Landing 10 shots with the Sniper (not counting charging the rifle AND the bonus utility given to the Stock Rifle) would deal 1500 damage. The Grenade Launcher ideally requires a mid-range and a much better understanding of the projectile compared to a hit-scan weapon, and puts the player in much more danger than a Sniper's ideal situation, yet the utility and damage are both lacking.

I could go on about how the Demoman has a more limited mobility mechanic than the Soldier (who still has other ways to deal massive damage) and has no out when put in danger (Spy can dead ring, a shield is broken on hit and charge is taken), but that would make this post unnecessarily longer than it should be. I will get to the point. Every Demoman Grenade Launcher (Stock, Iron Bomber, Loch N Load, and Loose Cannon) needs a buff to be more rewarding. A Demoman puts themselves in considerably more danger when approaching a boss than most classes (Scout has speed, Pyro has airblast, the only exception is a Heavy, but he has many things he can do as well), and that danger is not properly compensated as it is with most other classes.

Most other servers I have been on have had band-aids to this issue. (The most common one was that Grenade Launchers crit when you have a shield on, but this limits his play-styles ever further). Rather, I suggest a damage buff to all Grenade Launchers. I do not know which form this should come, but here are a few suggestions to at least start the conversation:
  • Pipes crit when they land directly on the boss - this rewards good play while not buffing spam
  • Pipes crit when they would mini-crit - allows higher damage input with the added cost of a few moments of vulnerability
  • Pipes always mini-crit - not as big of a buff as I would prefer, but would be rewarding to not have to taunt every few seconds just to maintain a slightly higher dps
Here are some specific weapon ideas as well:
  • Make the Iron Bomber inflict less self-damage to jump off of rollers - gives Demoman some added mobility that isn't as hard to access
  • Make the Loose Cannon fully crit or do more damage on a Double-Donk (Double-Donk damage is REALLY unrewarding at the moment) - rewards good play and timing
I do not know if any of these changes are good, but I at least wanted to bring this issue to attention and start a conversation on a possible solution. I am sick of playing fairly well and landing most of my pipes only to have been outdamaged by someone that has much more safety and takes less effort on their class. Thank you for reading my long post.
 

Daisu!

Scarcely Lethal Noob
I agree with this guy! Very well thought out post! If I could give you Reddit Gold, I would!
 

Tyro

Mildly Menacing Medic

Might I ask why? I've thought about this every time I've played the game and wrote out a well thought out post. The least you could do is point out some flaw in my reasoning or give me a general idea of what you disagree with.
 

Tyro

Mildly Menacing Medic
Please disregard all the +1's on this thread. I was telling my friends over Discord how I made a post and they keep brigading it with their buffoonery. I want to have a legitimate conversation on how to make the Demoman, specifically when using the Grenade Launcher, feel more rewarding to play in Freak Fortress. I only want +1's that come from others to count, otherwise it would not be fair.
 

herp 105.4

Rage-Inducing Forum Troll
Contributor
FF2 Balancer
you know, demo used to do crit dmg as a hybrid on his grenade launcher but then they removed it, why not add it back?


either way +1
 

Racadel

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
+1 Demo needs to get his grenade launcher crit back seeing how it's fucking sad to see a damn eviction notice heavy dealing more dmg circling the hale around like a absolute retarded bitches then a demoman trying to aim with a grenade launcher that only deals 100 dmg.
 

DylanThompson

Unremarkable User
To add on to this so it doesn't just seem like I'm meme'ing, I agree with what's written about having to rely on playstyles. While Demoman can rack up a lot of damage with his stickies, it would really work best if his teammates lured the Hale to the trap (which if you haven't noticed, 75% of skial's user base is incapable of understanding strategy so it's not possible). This usually ends with the Demo just waiting by his trap trying to shoot pipes that are more difficult to land or having to lure the Hale in himself. If he does try luring in the Hale, he either ends up getting killed or killing himself. Demo can sticky jump but it feels like he's punished more while good soldiers can literally bounce off any surface. The most reasonable thing to do if buff the Grenade Launcher and if you think otherwise you're probably a spy main.

Also let the Caber refill on damage dealt or something. Spies can deal a percentage anytime by abusing facestabs, the least you can do is make the Caber viable.