The Vindicator

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
(I don't know if there is a thread on this already and if there is, I apologize in advance)
(Also, if I am not doing this right, please let me know)

I have recently noticed that spies on VSH are getting too much damage from back stabs. I understand that on a full server that spies get 2.5K damage on a single hale round and 1.5K damage on a double hale round. Even with rage, these rounds tend to be short lived and these short rounds heavily favor spies. This leads to spies climbing to the top of the leader board with ease, and killing inexperienced hales super quickly and as a result, new hales are not going to get any better. Compared to every other class, it can accumulate damage very quickly with very little effort and time. I can go on and on about how spies need to be nerfed, but here is what I propose:

We need to cap the spy limit at 3 spies Max and only award up to 1K damage per backstab (provided the server is full)

I understand this may not be a popular idea and I know i'm going to get some feedback/criticism on this, however these rounds need to last a little longer so that everyone can enjoy them. I also understand that this is not likely gonna happen but I figured that something needed to be said.
 

g .

Uncharitable Spy
Mapper
-1 Spies only have the illusion of being overpowered by all the chaos of a full server. In a fight against an experienced hale that is always moving and conscious of spies, they get shut down pretty quick. The only thing I think this nerf would do is dishearten spy mains and make rounds against new hales drag on just a little longer.
 

mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
If we are trying to give the unexperienced player more of a chance to defend themself, I'd immediately start with changing "you were tickled" in white text to "A Spy backstabbed you!" in a color text for their notification. This would be a good first step to help address new hales learning how to stay afloat.

Bottiger has stated he would like to avoid class limits (https://www.skial.com/threads/add-back-class-limits-to-vsh.85115/) in the thread where he approved to limit sniper. So limiting the player's class choice sounds like a nuclear option; fun over balance.

66% less damage on backstabs is an extreme nerf that doesn't feel necessary given the damage capabilities of the other classes across the board.
 

g .

Uncharitable Spy
Mapper
If we are trying to give the unexperienced player more of a chance to defend themself, I'd immediately start with changing "you were tickled" in white text to "A Spy backstabbed you!" in a color text for their notification. This would be a good first step to help address new hales learning how to stay afloat.

Bottiger has stated he would like to avoid class limits (https://www.skial.com/threads/add-back-class-limits-to-vsh.85115/) in the thread where he approved to limit sniper. So limiting the player's class choice sounds like a nuclear option; fun over balance.

66% less damage on backstabs is an extreme nerf that doesn't feel necessary given the damage capabilities of the other classes across the board.
To be honest, vsh is in a very RED-sided state right now. It's very easy for RED team to win even with little to no coordination. At least from my experience, it takes a generous amount of skill and game sense to win as Hale.
 

The Vindicator

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
The issue I'm trying to address is to limit how much damage a spy can do in a single back-stab. I'm noticing that many experienced spies, are getting a ton of back-stabs in single round. This week alone, I noticed that spies were at the top of the leader board every time I logged in to play VSH (and the point difference was VERY significant). While I was playing this week, I noticed spies earned near/over 9K damage per round on average. Since hit-reg is not perfect on these servers, this gives spies even more of an advantage to trick-stab. Maybe my initial suggestion was harsh, but there needs to be some sort of balance as far as spies are concerned.

If we are trying to give the unexperienced player more of a chance to defend themself, I'd immediately start with changing "you were tickled" in white text to "A Spy backstabbed you!" in a color text for their notification. This would be a good first step to help address new hales learning how to stay afloat.

Bottiger has stated he would like to avoid class limits (https://www.skial.com/threads/add-back-class-limits-to-vsh.85115/) in the thread where he approved to limit sniper. So limiting the player's class choice sounds like a nuclear option; fun over balance.

66% less damage on backstabs is an extreme nerf that doesn't feel necessary given the damage capabilities of the other classes across the board.

I understand trying to avoid class limits in the spirit of trying to keep the servers fun, but when most of the hales (especially new ones) die quickly, I don't feel like the server gets much out of it. I am open to hearing another suggestion from anyone, but I don't feel like this is something to just shut down entirely.

Also ,I agree that VSH is very red-sided. That is one of the reasons I am trying to get the spy nerfed. (even just a little)
 

Dragontamer

TF2 Admin
Contributor
I believe spy just needs a nerf on the kunai. It allows him to tank a hit from Hale and combined with the dead ringer he can escape from Hale because he gets launched far away. However I think that the big earners speed boost should be brought back so the kunai isn't the only good knife there is.
Either that, or just remove fall damage resistance when cloaked with the dead ringer/invis watch. This way if spy gets launched pretty far, he usually has low health and will die from the fall.
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
VSH is red-sided and I think that's the point; I prefer having a high skill floor/ceiling for Hale. I also prefer the fast rounds personally because you can get more hales in a map.
I'm only seeing a handful of players net 9k+ damage average on Spy playing daily the last month, and other players have been observed to net that amount of damage on other classes.

huge +1 on bringing back the big earner speed boost, adding perks to the other weapons would be nice so that the spy meta isn't always DR+Kunai+L'Etranger. From what I understand, there's very little incentive for anyone to run a different knife than Kunai, or a different PDA than DR, simply because they're far less effective in the context of the gamemode.
 
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g .

Uncharitable Spy
Mapper
VSH is red-sided and I think that's the point; I prefer having a high skill floor/ceiling for Hale. I also prefer the fast rounds personally because you can get more hales in a map.
I'm only seeing a handful of players net 9k+ damage average on Spy playing daily the last month, and other players have been observed to net that amount of damage on other classes.

huge +1 on bringing back the big earner speed boost, adding perks to the other weapons would be nice so that the spy meta isn't always DR+Kunai+L'Etranger. From what I understand, there's very little incentive for anyone to run a different knife than Kunai, or a different PDA than DR, simply because they're far less effective in the context of the gamemode.
I agree that VSH should be RED-sided. If the gamemode were perfectly balanced it wouldn't be any fun and it'd be far too easy for already experienced hales to obliterate the RED team. But I don't believe VSH is where it should be, balancing-wise.
 

Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
Just put a cap, do something. It's so unbelievably un-fun that every round, 1 or 2 spies are getting at least 10k damage EACH making the rounds last a max of 2 mins. The reality is in a max 32 player server (which the server is more often than not full) running behind a hale and pressing m1 for 2k+ dmg over and over is NOT HARD which needs to be addressed. id much prefer longer rounds rather than a new hale every other minuet. Being hale is now not an easy thing anymore even just with the server always being full, that in itself makes it rather difficult unless you spam E in that case it really doesn't matter that much. In conclusion, I don't play the class, I don't know what you could do, even capping I don't think would be effective enough. id rather let the people that do play spy make hopefully the right decision themselves. But please for the love of god something should be done.
 

mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
Just put a cap, do something. It's so unbelievably un-fun that every round, 1 or 2 spies are getting at least 10k damage EACH making the rounds last a max of 2 mins. The reality is in a max 32 player server (which the server is more often than not full) running behind a hale and pressing m1 for 2k+ dmg over and over is NOT HARD which needs to be addressed. id much prefer longer rounds rather than a new hale every other minuet. Being hale is now not an easy thing anymore even just with the server always being full, that in itself makes it rather difficult unless you spam E in that case it really doesn't matter that much. In conclusion, I don't play the class, I don't know what you could do, even capping I don't think would be effective enough. id rather let the people that do play spy make hopefully the right decision themselves. But please for the love of god something should be done.

Running behind a Hale and going w+m1 only works on the easiest Hales who simply don't turn around. It is not Spy's fault that the Hale is not protecting himself from a Spy in any way, so nerfing this class directly doesn't make sense; these Hales get torn apart by RED team, with or without Spies.

If you want those rounds to last longer? Fix the backstab notification text. Give Hale a razorback. Give him a few seconds of uber after every stab during which he cannot rage. Buff Hale against Spy, instead of nerfing Spy, especially if the consensus is that it is too hard to win as Hale, and that that is the problem at hand.
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
Looking back at this thread after spending a lot of time in-game and thinking it over, I'm settling on a -1. I fully agree with giving newer Hales a better chance of winning, but nerfing Spy is not the means to justify the ends, especially in the manner suggested.

The current backstab damage and the absence of the most class limits have been concurrent for quite some time now.

The results we are seeing in the server in recent days is a combination of strong Spy mains with an abundance of new players, likely due to the Coronavirus situation bringing them online. We are seeing a large amount of VSH newbies getting mixed in with the veterans, and one thing Spy in particular has always been good at is shredding the easy Hales. VSH Spy has been that way for almost a decade now, so we are simply in a period of time where Spy is having an extremely easy time playing his role in the gamemode; an unprecedented, but definitely temporary, prosperity.

Spy is also still nowhere near as powerful as uncapped Sniper was, which was the previous grounds for action taken directly to a RED class in VSH, which is what I'd like to use as a baseline example. Back then, when no class had a limit, a trend had emerged where a majority of players could pick sniper, especially on larger maps (which Skial has quite a few of,) and all Hales, regardless of experience level, were losing. We saw that Hale's win rate basically became 0% as everyone kept repeating this strategy, hence why we nerfed him as we did with a cap. However, when everyone goes Spy (which we've had a few nights of already, playing organized class rushes,) we do not get this same no-Hale-can-win scenario. This is what I am basing the idea of overpowered on, in which case Spy is not overpowered.

I am still all for previous suggestions like giving Spy more variety to deter the aggressive meta, giving new Hales better indications, or buffing Hale against Spy, as these would all be timeless suggestions.
However, the initial suggestion a straight hefty nerf to Spy by either capping the Spy limit/reducing the damage is not warranted. Nerfing Spy's backstab damage again and placing a class limit will just make Spy far worse across the board. Spies will still just w+m1 milk damage off of those clueless Saxtons, it'll just take slightly longer. And as previously stated; class limits are to be avoided at all costs. It's just not fun to remove player choice.

During the time this thread has been up, proponents of this thread, such as the OP, have been hostile toward Spies and specific Spy players in-server. This, coupled with the severity and angle of approach for the course of action originally suggested, leads me to believe the initial suggestion comes from a place of personal contempt and not from an honest want to better new players or the hale rounds.

Once COVID-19 settles down and we are back to seeing our usual numbers on VSH, Spy will no longer have loads of new player fodder to feast on, and we will go back to seeing the usual Spy mains have their good rounds now and then. Of course, some Spies will still get an excessive amount of damage when when a new or inexperienced Hale inevitably plays, as it always has since the very beginning of VSH as a gamemode.

p.s. Other suggestions...
Outline highlight players for a few seconds who land backstabs, market gardens, or goombas.
Make Easter Bunny the default Hale for people who don't /sethale. Scare spies away.
Remove crouch jumping! Teach Hales to only use their right-click since it is almost universally agreed upon as the superior method, as well as making you less vulnerable to Spies.
Remove the Spy's backstab cooldown and give Hale a razorback for a few seconds after he's been stabbed instead. Blocking an inidividual Spy's backstab for a few seconds doesn't matter if there's more than one Spy.
As a nerf to Kunai, maybe have it block healing but not uber while active, like how Sniper's melee currently is?
 
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Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
Running behind a Hale and going w+m1 only works on the easiest Hales who simply don't turn around. It is not Spy's fault that the Hale is not protecting himself from a Spy in any way, so nerfing this class directly doesn't make sense; these Hales get torn apart by RED team, with or without Spies.

Unfortunately this is simply untrue, the only difference is the good hales that get backstabbed turn around to a Kunai buffed spy who doesn't die and either hits him and they fly away or have time to dead ringer again anyway. With a max server a hale cant be looking behind him the whole time or he'll just kill no one. It's the exact same way with hales that only look up in millitary for MGers, they can just not jump at him while everyone else has their way.

Once COVID-19 settles down and we are back to seeing our usual numbers on VSH, Spy will no longer have loads of new player fodder to feast on, and we will go back to seeing the usual Spy mains have their good rounds now and then

I think this is a poor way to look at it.

1. COVID-19 doesn't show any sort of slowing down, more and more things shut down everyday hinting at this fact along with the million other tell signs.

2. This has been an issue since the inception of VSH 2 just amplified due to point 1, not only because of it.

3. Server numbers also jumped due to taking away of the other VSH servers so there's only one place to go.

This is a problem with the Kunai and the Dead-ringer being as op as they are and in my full and honest opinion something does have to get done one way or another. I've been playing this game mode for 8+ years and it hasn't ever been as bad as it has as it is now with VSH2. I as a long time Skial VSH player actively avoid playing during the day due to stated issues and im not the only one. Like I stated in my previous post, I hope something does get done because it really does need it.
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
Unfortunately this is simply untrue, the only difference is the good hales that get backstabbed turn around to a Kunai buffed spy who doesn't die and either hits him and they fly away or have time to dead ringer again anyway. With a max server a hale cant be looking behind him the whole time or he'll just kill no one. It's the exact same way with hales that only look up in millitary for MGers, they can just not jump at him while everyone else has their way.

I don't think this is fair to refute as untrue and then give an example of what a "good Hale" does or can't do in the assumption that he is stabbed. If we mean to speak of what the experienced player can do, there are experienced Hales that play a whole round without getting stabbed or gardened at all. Options to deal with kunai Spies do exist in the event of a stab, such as downswinging to prevent knocking away, knocking toward map geometry, or just plain raging. The whole point of Kunai as I understand it, however, is that it's supposed to be risky until you get the stab, since that Spy is dead with 0 damage when he misses, or when Hale hits first when the Spy isn't ready, which I would like to say happens way more than people notice, since some Spy dying isn't exactly something people are actively looking out for, especially during the opening of a round. (There's also "ringerbreak" where a Spy will die with his dead ringer out because the Hale's client swung at a Spy who didn't have their ringer out yet.)

3. Server numbers also jumped due to taking away of the other VSH servers so there's only one place to go.

Forgot about this, sorry.

This is a problem with the Kunai and the Dead-ringer being as op as they are and in my full and honest opinion something does have to get done one way or another. I've been playing this game mode for 8+ years and it hasn't ever been as bad as it has as it is now with VSH2. I as a long time Skial VSH player actively avoid playing during the day due to stated issues and im not the only one. Like I stated in my previous post, I hope something does get done because it really does need it.

I've also been playing VSH since 2011, and I respectfully disagree with that notion, since Spies used to get 4,000+ damage per stab at full server (~10%+?) and I'd say that was the worst it's been :)

I wouldn't mind rebalancing Spy's power to his revolvers/throwing kunai to do more damage, giving more utility to other knives or cloak watches, or giving Hale more tools to handle Spies, but a straight hard nerf to DR+Kunai alone should not be the answer; DR+Kunai is only such a prevalent combo because there is absolutely no incentive to play any other way. Nerfing these items without anything else to replace them with would just be a drastic change that would do more harm than good.

Every other class has multiple ways to play VSH that is rewarding in some way, as well as weapons modified specifically for VSH. I think the Spy players of our server would be fine to nerf the DR+Kunai if it meant we could get more variety in our loadout. I personally would be happy to reduce stab damage on Kunai and decreasing the DR's recharge rate if we had other viable ways to play the class. Otherwise, Spy's only really good at one thing played one way and it'd just be making that one thing worse.
 
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Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
I wouldn't mind rebalancing Spy's power to his revolvers/throwing kunai to do more damage, giving more utility to other knives or cloak watches, or giving Hale more tools to handle Spies, but a straight hard nerf to DR+Kunai alone should not be the answer; DR+Kunai is only such a prevalent combo because there is absolutely no incentive to play any other way. Nerfing these items without anything else to replace them with would just be a drastic change that would do more harm than good.

I 100% agree, I don't mean to just nerf them into the ground and make them unusable. nerfing them and then buffing others so you can use other things as well on the same level rather than the Kuna+DR being the 100% best thing to use.

've also been playing VSH since 2011, and I respectfully disagree with that notion, since Spies used to get 4,000+ damage per stab at full server (~10%+?) and I'd say that was the worst it's been :)

I was also around for this, but the servers I played on at least had a 2 spy max which made it a lot easier to deal with. Id take a spy max of 2 and they deal 10% each stab over 5 spies doing 2k over and over and over. I do realize a max is not what people want out of this i'm just saying that's what I played with and I thought it was fine. You have to understand tracking 5 spies is very hard and its hard to tell which you've hit when they all disguise. When I kill a spy and they actually die it's more dumb luck randomly swinging after they DR than skill which is silly to be honest. Not to say you cant predict.

I also think if a counter to something is hitting your E key that's already an issue. That's a last resort kind of thing and if your last resort is one of your only counters or hoping your ping is better/worse than the person your trying to kill, I think that's kind of weird don't you? I understand using rage is completely up to the player, I don't care who uses and who doesn't but I don't think that should be one of if not the only in game counter.

there are experienced Hales that play a whole round without getting stabbed or gardened at all.

I go games where I don't get hit by either as well, and then there's others where I get backstabbed 4 times in half a second because I'm trying to actually kill someone in front of me rather than walking backwards the whole round.

I've said all I need to say at this point, if another point is brought up that changes my opinion ill chip in but I'm still heavily in favor of something being done to spy whether it be nerfing/buffing of spies items or last resort just capping the class entirely. Hopefully some conclusion is met sooner than later.
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
I've said all I need to say at this point, if another point is brought up that changes my opinion ill chip in but I'm still heavily in favor of something being done to spy whether it be nerfing/buffing of spies items or last resort just capping the class entirely. Hopefully some conclusion is met sooner than later.

I agree. After reading through this whole thread again, I'd like to start with something concrete.
Here's some solutions I'd like to propose, assuming no spy class limit is made;

General VSH changes: change backstab notification to read "A Spy backstabbed you!" instead of "You were tickled!" Also, change "You stabbed the Hale" from "You tickled the Hale for the Spy's end. Outline a player for five seconds whenever they backstab, market garden, or goomba the Hale.

General Spy change: Base backstab damage decreased by 20% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2500 -> 2000; would take 5 stabs to reach 10k.)

Kunai: Backstab damage decreased by 15% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1700; would take 6 stabs to reach 10k.)
Since survivability is what makes this knife so good, I'd reduce damage so that it forces the Spy to have to continually go back in for stabs; it'd take longer on easy Hales, and be riskier on experienced Hales.

Dead Ringer: Increase time to recharge by 33%
(I don't know what the exact values are for this one, so this is just a filler nerf-- but this would force Spies to use their L'Etranger more and/or prevent them from rushing back in so quickly.)

Since this would be a rebalance, I'd like to propose the following changes for other spy weapons; I'd be comfortable if these were implemented as they are written here but they're just meant to give Spy more specialization, and I wanted to kick some ideas around that could make Spy more fun and different to play as and to fight against. Some of these ideas are from other servers, some are just my own.

Knives:


Stock Knife: no change.
Big Earner: give a speed boost of for 7 seconds on backstab, reduce max Spy health to 80.
The default speed boost should work. If we need a reference, it's 35% faster (the disciplinary action effect.) The further health reduction is to prevent it from being just a better stock knife.
Spy-cicle: removes 25% rage on stab, backstab damage is decreased by 25% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1500)
This would intend to make the Spy-cicle a support weapon.
YER/Wanga Prick: Removes disguise kit and cloak from Spy; grants passive scout speed.
A glass cannon variant. Spy is certainly dead upon one successful hit no matter what, but he's slightly more mobile now.

Guns:

Stock Revolver: no change.
L'Etranger: no change.
Ambassador: remove damage falloff
In order to get the full 255 damage, you have to be within 10 feet of the Hale. If someone can reliably hit Amby headshots from a long distance, it should be rewarded the same. |
Alternatively, please buff the headshot damage if we can't remove the falloff.

Enforcer: marks boss (like Sniper) on successful hit.
Another weapon that would function as a support.
Diamondback: change crits received on stab from 2 to 12.
Considering that one shot from the stock revolver on minicrits can do up to 80 damage, 102 from a diamondback crit doesn't mean a lot unless Spy got a lot more of it.

Cloak:

Stock cloak/Cloak and Dagger: disciplinary action effect speed while invisible.
I can't think of anything more creative here that doesn't require a lot more coding to pull off.
 
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Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
General Spy change: Base backstab damage decreased by 20% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2500 -> 2000; would take 5 stabs to reach 10k.)

Kunai: Backstab damage decreased by 15% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1700; would take 6 stabs to reach 10k.)
Since survivability is what makes this knife so good, I'd reduce damage so that it forces the Spy to have to continually go back in for stabs; it'd take longer on easy Hales, and be riskier on experienced Hales.

Dead Ringer: Increase time to recharge by 33%
(I don't know what the exact values are for this one, so this is just a filler nerf-- but this would force Spies to use their L'Etranger more and/or prevent them from rushing back in so quickly.)

Since this would be a rebalance, I'd like to propose the following changes for other spy weapons; I'd be comfortable if these were implemented as they are written here but they're just meant to give Spy more specialization, and I wanted to kick some ideas around that could make Spy more fun and different to play as and to fight against. Some of these ideas are from other servers, some are just my own.

Knives:

Stock Knife: no change.
Big Earner: give a speed boost of for 7 seconds on backstab, reduce max Spy health to 80.
The default speed boost should work. If we need a reference, it's 35% faster (the disciplinary action effect.) The further health reduction is to prevent it from being just a better stock knife.
Spy-cicle: removes 25% rage on stab, backstab damage is decreased by 25% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1500)
This would intend to make the Spy-cicle a support weapon.
YER/Wanga Prick: Removes disguise kit and cloak from Spy; grants passive scout speed.
A glass cannon variant. Spy is certainly dead upon one successful hit no matter what, but he's slightly more mobile now.
Guns:

Stock Revolver: no change.
L'Etranger: no change.
Ambassador: remove damage falloff
In order to get the full 255 damage, you have to be within 10 feet of the Hale. If someone can reliably hit Amby headshots from a long distance, it should be rewarded the same. |
Alternatively, please buff the headshot damage if we can't remove the falloff.

Enforcer: marks boss (like Sniper) on successful hit.
Another weapon that would function as a support.
Diamondback: change crits received on stab from 2 to 12.
Considering that one shot from the stock revolver on minicrits can do up to 80 damage, 102 from a diamondback crit doesn't mean a lot unless Spy got a lot more of it.

Cloak:

Stock cloak/Cloak and Dagger: disciplinary action effect speed while invisible.
I can't think of anything more creative here that doesn't require a lot more coding to pull off.

+1
 

The Vindicator

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
I agree. After reading through this whole thread again, I'd like to start with something concrete.
Here's some solutions I'd like to propose, assuming no spy class limit is made;

General VSH changes: change backstab notification to read "A Spy backstabbed you!" instead of "You were tickled!" Also, change "You stabbed the Hale" from "You tickled the Hale for the Spy's end. Outline a player for five seconds whenever they backstab, market garden, or goomba the Hale.

General Spy change: Base backstab damage decreased by 20% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2500 -> 2000; would take 5 stabs to reach 10k.)

Kunai: Backstab damage decreased by 15% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1700; would take 6 stabs to reach 10k.)
Since survivability is what makes this knife so good, I'd reduce damage so that it forces the Spy to have to continually go back in for stabs; it'd take longer on easy Hales, and be riskier on experienced Hales.

Dead Ringer: Increase time to recharge by 33%
(I don't know what the exact values are for this one, so this is just a filler nerf-- but this would force Spies to use their L'Etranger more and/or prevent them from rushing back in so quickly.)

Since this would be a rebalance, I'd like to propose the following changes for other spy weapons; I'd be comfortable if these were implemented as they are written here but they're just meant to give Spy more specialization, and I wanted to kick some ideas around that could make Spy more fun and different to play as and to fight against. Some of these ideas are from other servers, some are just my own.

Knives:


Stock Knife: no change.
Big Earner: give a speed boost of for 7 seconds on backstab, reduce max Spy health to 80.
The default speed boost should work. If we need a reference, it's 35% faster (the disciplinary action effect.) The further health reduction is to prevent it from being just a better stock knife.
Spy-cicle: removes 25% rage on stab, backstab damage is decreased by 25% (on a full server's Saxton Hale, this would be 2000 -> 1500)
This would intend to make the Spy-cicle a support weapon.
YER/Wanga Prick: Removes disguise kit and cloak from Spy; grants passive scout speed.
A glass cannon variant. Spy is certainly dead upon one successful hit no matter what, but he's slightly more mobile now.

Guns:

Stock Revolver: no change.
L'Etranger: no change.
Ambassador: remove damage falloff
In order to get the full 255 damage, you have to be within 10 feet of the Hale. If someone can reliably hit Amby headshots from a long distance, it should be rewarded the same. |
Alternatively, please buff the headshot damage if we can't remove the falloff.

Enforcer: marks boss (like Sniper) on successful hit.
Another weapon that would function as a support.
Diamondback: change crits received on stab from 2 to 12.
Considering that one shot from the stock revolver on minicrits can do up to 80 damage, 102 from a diamondback crit doesn't mean a lot unless Spy got a lot more of it.

Cloak:

Stock cloak/Cloak and Dagger: disciplinary action effect speed while invisible.
I can't think of anything more creative here that doesn't require a lot more coding to pull off.

I honestly like these suggestions, because the rounds will take slightly longer and new players(hales) will have more of a chance to learn from their mistakes as opposed to dying within the first minute.

+1
 

pugg

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
I completely support a nerf to spy.

The Spy is a stealthy assailant that shines when he is undetected and feeds off of this greatly, in VSH this playstyle is completely viable and yields good results. But, in recent history spies are now chasing hales in the open. They have basically undertaken the role of the scout, it is not uncommon to see 3+ spies following and actively throwing themselves at hale. This is a clear and obvious red flag that his kit allows him to do too much. Especially the kunai. I like the class limit of 3 but would like to see a different damage reduction to a single backstab. (I don't agree with 66% less dmg nerf)
I would propose 33%-40% damage reduction.

Note: The fact that a spy can fearlessly and consistently get away with following and throwing themselves at the HALE describes perfectly how strong spy is. Spies have become the number 1 enemy for hales to target first.
 

g .

Uncharitable Spy
Mapper
Pugg's reasoning has got me thinking and changed my mind, I +1 for a backstab to do less damage, not too sure about class limits though.
 
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