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Glazzy

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
I believe that I and many others of the active Skial community absolutely hate these new server plugins. VSH 2 and in some cases VSH 3 is just a very poor idea and unfun to play against. When this occurs it's basically impossible to win unless there are 2 or 3 inexperienced hales or 1-3 AFK Hales.

Also some of the weapons in this gamemode recieved unnecessary nerfs. These being the Market Garden, Mantreads, and Baby Face's Blaster. The Market Garden required a vast amount of skill, precision, and timing to accomplish and was very satisfying to hit. The Mantreads used to negate almost all fall damage but now it's changed to the gunboats. Removing these meta abilities from soldier just makes him a weak class and worthless to play.

Same goes for the scout. His "bfb" at low health levels allowed for a fast paced and smooth gameplay that required you to constantly keep your ammo count in check as well as watch out for fall damage. His large spread on his gun rewarded accuracy with high damage and speed to outrun hales. There was a fairly easy counter to this and that was solo rage. In some instances hale could outsmart the scout and make him run into objects or super jump to his exact location.

The only thing that was good about this update was the uber after backstab/nailgun for spy and the damage boost for a healed heavy since he can be a weak class in certain scenarios with his low mobility and delayed spin up. I like the smoother weigh down and super jumps on hale as well.

Other than that this update was awful. The worst thing about this was that there was no news, announcement, or way to see what was changed about the new update. It just happened out of nowhere and we were forced into it. The developers just need to reverse the nerfs, keep the buffs, and get rid of VSH 2 and this gamemode will be just fine.

Absolutely no change was needed. Btw this is coming from an everyday player of these hale servers currently in the 20's rank. I don't think I'll be playing these servers anymore if these changes are permanent.
 
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fallinisms

Scarcely Lethal Noob
I could agree with the Mantreads nerf but you might want to consider it that I’m quite biased since I do admittedly ‘main’ Market Gardening Soldier. (Unsure if tank having relevance of being #15? Weird flex but okay-) Having it revert to the previous baseline fall damage is a bit iffy especially considering it’s old stats. While it is considerably powerful I can admit especially on a map like vsh_military_area where there are health packs galore. (There are usually a plethora of other rocket jumping soldiers that make going to the health packs a competition especially considering how other classes also need them. Thus it becomes a more of a competition of hounding this and it becoming a scarcity resource especially when it comes down to a wire.)

Thus comes a need to watch your health values that’s becomes more prominent and have soldiers become more landed that Market Gardening can be a tossed out strategy altogether in favor of it becoming a escape strategy. (Mostly since many do rely on fear tactics of baiting and distracting contempt hales who keeps an eye on these soldiers as they are a threat and dividing their focus)

It could be a reason to lower demand for less market gardening tactics in favor of alternative and less used tactics (e.i. Shotgun + Rocket combo, Direct Hit + Battalion’s Backup)

But at least have some fall damage reduction in place instead of removing it altogether. Possibly having it in a 5-10 damage range if it’s feasible compared to the previous 2-4 damage range. Also consider in how Rocket jumping does depletes the Soldier’s health in this decision of deciding to revert or at least balance out these changes. And how much the Soldier’s final health along with considering that’s if he goes for a Market, how much hp does he needs to escape from the hale. (Especially considering that contact with the hale increases the self-damage that rocket jumping inflicts.) Else it becomes a death sentence to try to market garden the hale.

While my opinion on Spy (as having played him before for several hours on this update and the previous one that echoes it, about a year or so ago?) is pretty negative. That it might seem unfair especially with the nail gun that he has received. That a spy with good aim can easily abuse this and stop the hale in its tracks. Along that it removes the necessity of even using the revolver which is a quite fun weapon to use provided that you can aim. (Especially comparing the speeds in how these weapons can shoot, nail gun being the clear winner in firing speed) That it can opt to of - why not Medic having crits with the syringe gun too? But that can be debunked since Medic can be OP in the hands of a good player though only weighed down by the lack of self-movement that doesn’t rely on his teammates.
 

Glazzy

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
I could agree with the Mantreads nerf but you might want to consider it that I’m quite biased since I do admittedly ‘main’ Market Gardening Soldier. (Unsure if tank having relevance of being #15? Weird flex but okay-) Having it revert to the previous baseline fall damage is a bit iffy especially considering it’s old stats. While it is considerably powerful I can admit especially on a map like vsh_military_area where there are health packs galore. (There are usually a plethora of other rocket jumping soldiers that make going to the health packs a competition especially considering how other classes also need them. Thus it becomes a more of a competition of hounding this and it becoming a scarcity resource especially when it comes down to a wire.)

Thus comes a need to watch your health values that’s becomes more prominent and have soldiers become more landed that Market Gardening can be a tossed out strategy altogether in favor of it becoming a escape strategy. (Mostly since many do rely on fear tactics of baiting and distracting contempt hales who keeps an eye on these soldiers as they are a threat and dividing their focus)

It could be a reason to lower demand for less market gardening tactics in favor of alternative and less used tactics (e.i. Shotgun + Rocket combo, Direct Hit + Battalion’s Backup)

But at least have some fall damage reduction in place instead of removing it altogether. Possibly having it in a 5-10 damage range if it’s feasible compared to the previous 2-4 damage range. Also consider in how Rocket jumping does depletes the Soldier’s health in this decision of deciding to revert or at least balance out these changes. And how much the Soldier’s final health along with considering that’s if he goes for a Market, how much hp does he needs to escape from the hale. (Especially considering that contact with the hale increases the self-damage that rocket jumping inflicts.) Else it becomes a death sentence to try to market garden the hale.

While my opinion on Spy (as having played him before for several hours on this update and the previous one that echoes it, about a year or so ago?) is pretty negative. That it might seem unfair especially with the nail gun that he has received. That a spy with good aim can easily abuse this and stop the hale in its tracks. Along that it removes the necessity of even using the revolver which is a quite fun weapon to use provided that you can aim. (Especially comparing the speeds in how these weapons can shoot, nail gun being the clear winner in firing speed) That it can opt to of - why not Medic having crits with the syringe gun too? But that can be debunked since Medic can be OP in the hands of a good player though only weighed down by the lack of self-movement that doesn’t rely on his teammates.
I would personally remove the nail gun too really. Spy really needed that reward for pulling off a crazy trickstab or timed backstab. Spies were actually quite easy to pick off with a little dedication so the uber on backstabs will reward a spy with more skill. I also hate the fact that when cloaked he still takes tons of fall damage. The point of his cloak was to reduce damage but now it's strictly to take an extra hit from hale.
 
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Dragontamer

TF2 Admin
Contributor
I would personally remove the nail gun too really but spy really needed that reward for pulling off a crazy trickstab or timed backstab. Spies were actually quite easy to pick off with a little dedication so the uber on backstabs will reward a spy with more skill.
We already have the big earner to make an escape. This is coming from someone who mains spy on Saxton Hale, we don't need an uber to escape.
 

Glazzy

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
We already have the big earner to make an escape. This is coming from someone who mains spy on Saxton Hale, we don't need an uber to escape.
The new update gives him an uber and speed boost to escape so the big earner would just to have a cloak just in case you get raged after uber. The big earner didn't matter much if the hale raged then turned around and chased you.
 

DankbobSquarememes

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
There's gonna be a lot of people, including myself who don't want this new plugin, nor want the old one gone, it needs to be removed because the player base for VSH will find somewhere else to go.
 

Keith

Uncharitable Spy
Like OP said, I'm just wondering why this wasn't posted before, letting us know about the new changes, it's like a completely new game mode, and it sucks. I was sticking to VSH on Skial servers because it felt like vanilla VSH, but all these new changes makes it frustrating and not fun anymore, and afaik, no one asked for this / no one had a problem with old VSH, except for a few nerfs and buffs on certain weapons.
So I guess I'll be waiting to see what Skial does with it.
 

Opb

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
Mapper
I agree here, the old vsh was quite well balanced out and i also do agree that only minor changes would've suited it just fine. I hope skial brings back the old weapons stats not this unbalanced new version.....
For me, it took all the fun out of the gamemode i really enjoyed. Please, Skial. Bring back the old weapon stats with minor fixes....
 

Brimp

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
ill be honest the only good thing out of vsh 2 was the bfb nerf especially annoying on large maps where scouts just get full boost and you cant catch up to them even with a rage, other than that ive seen many players hate the vsh 2 gamemode
 
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zIP

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Unpopular opinion: I liked 2 hales and the instant rage upon pressing E. I think people are being harsh on the concept, but a blip of communication from skial when implementing it could have been nice...
 

ĶĮζĶ-ĄŞŞ

Scarcely Lethal Noob
We must come back as before. A classic vsh is so much more interesting and fun. I agree with Opb, the balance is already very good without plugin and it would take a few slight changes like removing Baby Face's Blaster and The Dragon's Fury.
The plugin really spoils the game mode.