[VSH] Add secret_base, top_arena, brewery, streets, rust, pumpkin_fort, calmity_beach

[jake.]

These maps have never been added to skial's VSH and are recommended by some VSH players who have played for years.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0K6aKkhu34tSXNKSHpMRGVxV00?usp=sharing

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

These maps have never been added to skial's VSH and are recommended by some VSH players who have played for years.

Das kool. If it helps I can also drop my mediafire link if people don't wanna use googledrive.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

This is in a way adding onto the threads by red solo dirty beer pong cup 2 days ago since no one responded and it wasn't very well done since it was rushed.

I have played on quite a few different VSH communities in my time (GSN, degree-gaming,outpost,skial, Disc FF...etc.) and I have shit-ton of experience in it as well, (2500 hours) so I hope I know what maps are good and what are not when it comes to this stuff. I do help GSN VSH with picking out new maps and removing old ones as well.

So without delay here is some videos I made with skial vsh in mind talking about the 4 best maps out of the 10 I recommended earlier. These maps to me are perfect for skial and should have no issues being accepted into the map rotation.

If you have any problems with download links I have my mediafire count link for the file with all 10 maps:
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/c8qmp4terrzpv/vsh_Skial

(Please note that vsh does downgrade medium ammo packs into small ones so while I was recording in a empty server I also checked in a vsh server to confirm all these ammo packs are small in game.)
vsh_streets_v3 , arena_rust_remake_v2 , vsh_pumpkin_fort_v3 , and vsh_top_arena_v1

vsh_streets_v3: http://gamebanana.com/maps/181531 - Game banana download page
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=459710802 steam workshop download

Video walk-through and some ups and downs of Streets

arena_rust_remake_v2: http://gamebanana.com/maps/188927 Game banana download page
(no workshop but I am married to the creator in TF2 >.>)

Video walk-through and some ups and downs of Rust

vsh_pumpkin_fort_v3: http://gamebanana.com/maps/189787 game banana download page.
(same person that made rust)

Same as previous 2

vsh_top_arena_v1: http://gamebanana.com/maps/164347 game banana download

(old map from 2012)

Do the admins require any more information or have any questions involving these 4 maps or the other 6 I will get to down the road?

 

[BusinessDÏnK]

i personally love all these maps but streets .-.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

@Meowcenary someone said you do vsh as an admin what do you think?

 

[Luke]

vsh_streets_v3

Quite like the look of this map, though it looks like it might be a bit too open.
Not a huge fan of the low skybox - but not too bad overall, +1

arena_rust_remake_v2

Really like this map - my only issue would be the pipe... though rage would easily destroy nests.
Quite a fan of the jumping/avoidance that could be done on this map +1
(I'd like to see how that tower performs in terms of sniper/Hale balance)

vsh_pumpkin_fort_v3

I think, as you said throughout, it's a silly map... I absolutely love that it uses spellbooks,
The rooms at the side of the spawns are interesting, though slightly worrying.
However - jump ramps. Not too sure how I feel about those. +0

vsh_top_arena_v1

The area with the numerous ammo packs looks like a few engineers could build a strong nest.
Very unsure about that pit, new Saxtons aren't very good with the jump, "they can die within like 30 seconds".
The well would definitely need to be patched before the map was to be put onto the servers.
It also looks like there might be a few places that people could hide and not help. -1

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Saw a capture point on all maps except arena_rust_remake - does it have one?
How long does each take to capture, how long does it take Hale to get to them?

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Saw a capture point on all maps except arena_rust_remake - does it have one?
How long does each take to capture, how long does it take Hale to get to them?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=885139424 Rust cap
Timings for caps was measured in a empty server as a eng (1 person) and Streets, pumpkin fort, and rust all clocked in at 24 seconds. So do the calculations for scouts and whatever skial US and EU has hale cap speed at. Varies on some servers.

top arena's capture point didn't turn on at all which isn't surprising considering its age. Very much in that west_fix vain where the creators disappeared years prior. Literally my cat fucked up my recording of that map 3 times and made me waste 25 minutes on it....maybe it knew all along. I figure you can't accept top arena since that's the only known available version of it and you guys are picky about your caps. Fk me.

All 4 maps have accessible caps that are slightly closer to hale all in all.

 

[Slip]

Streets is a good map.
IIRC top arena used to be on skial. Was a great map, perfect size.
We should also remove urban works. It's a horrible map. The only two playable classes there is soldier (with manntreads) and Sniper, all the other classes are near uselss as the map is so large.

I don't like pumpkin fort. Too large and wide open.

 

[Meowcenary]

We should also remove urban works. It's a horrible map. The only two playable classes there is soldier (with manntreads) and Sniper, all the other classes are near uselss as the map is so large.

It's a popular map from what I assume and the fact that its still on the server means its likely being played enough to justify keeping it

I don't like big maps either but gotta look at the big picture, removing maps based off of personal preference while ignoring what everyone else thinks of it is a bad idea

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

It's a popular map from what I assume and the fact that its still on the server means its likely being played enough to justify keeping it

I don't like big maps either but gotta look at the big picture, removing maps based off of personal preference while ignoring what everyone else thinks of it is a bad idea

Well the most popular maps the last 4 years are the ones RED's dominate in often(Cairo pyramid, dunger, warebloom(s), EP, Military Area etc.). The trend likely being when you die first as a RED in those maps your prob only waiting 2-3 minutes compared to a large open map waiting 3-5 minutes, when REDs do well that means more rounds and less time dead and idling which is the time players leave at a large %. Also the fact that when RED is doing well 20 players are "feeling themselves" positively compared to 3 BLUE players being down while getting wrecked compared to vise versa.

But you don't want too many of the same type of maps since that style of map can grow stale, and often these maps appease the newer players more than the regulars. You should try to have a few maps good for hales and a few maps good for RED's so the community can decide what it wants to vote and play on. I believe your main objective overall is gathering high quality maps with good game design then afterwards worrying about the balance and statistics.

Personally you should ask around about Urban works and I think it is frowned on a bit more than you think @Meowcenary ......at least by regulars.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

I think, as you said throughout, it's a silly map... I absolutely love that it uses spellbooks,

If you like spellbook vsh maps I can showcase West_v3 that's a more balanced west_fix map with Halloween settings made by the same guy
http://gamebanana.com/maps/187863

The area with the numerous ammo packs looks like a few engineers could build a strong nest.

In my experience with that ceiling so low hale can choose from literally half that crate area where to super jump up onto that area and very little difficulties come from it. You can easily rage from underneath in the crates themselves, quickly jump up and destroy any nest or just rage as you jump up. Outside of psychic pyro's there is little to deny hales that use the ceiling to get up in that area. As an eng I mostly build on the 2 crates in the middle of that red island or on top of those black vents near spawn room. That ammo area can be a death trap for RED's and engs because of that roof/ceiling.

that area is like the 2 full hp areas, in that you have to commit to that option which makes it a risk/reward sorta thing at times which is cool.

 

[White Moose]

-1

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

-1

great informative post.

 

[Meowcenary]

Well the most popular maps the last 4 years are the ones RED's dominate in often(Cairo pyramid, dunger, warebloom(s), EP, Military Area etc.). The trend likely being when you die first as a RED in those maps your prob only waiting 2-3 minutes compared to a large open map waiting 3-5 minutes, when REDs do well that means more rounds and less time dead and idling which is the time players leave at a large %. Also the fact that when RED is doing well 20 players are "feeling themselves" positively compared to 3 BLUE players being down while getting wrecked compared to vise versa.

But you don't want too many of the same type of maps since that style of map can grow stale, and often these maps appease the newer players more than the regulars. You should try to have a few maps good for hales and a few maps good for RED's so the community can decide what it wants to vote and play on. I believe your main objective overall is gathering high quality maps with good game design then afterwards worrying about the balance and statistics.

Personally you should ask around about Urban works and I think it is frowned on a bit more than you think @Meowcenary ......at least by regulars.

Bottiger is the one who handles map removals and map additions. But he does so mainly off of player traffic statistics

If a map is in the server rotation, then it likely means the statistics are showing the map is doing okay in terms of player traffic to the map. If a map is removed, it was likely only causing players to leave when the map was in play.

Urban works is still in rotation and has been in rotation ever since Cream Tea made it, so its likely doing well.

Those statistics I imagine are a lot more accurate than simply asking a handful of regulars if they like/dislike the map.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

How do the stats work? @Meowcenary

 

[Meowcenary]

How do the stats work? @Meowcenary

He keeps a eye on various things, I'm not sure of the details behind it all, but if I recall correctly at least some of it involves server graphs. He can see if a map is causing players to leave, and if so how many. I'm assuming he can also see how often the maps are chosen, and based off some of his previous posts he also has access to statistics that log the popularity of all maps across TF2 IIRC.

Here's a example of a server traffic graph https://stats.skial.com/#server/30

I could be wrong on some of this so take it with a grain of salt, but the overall point is he knows what he's doing. We may not agree with some of the maps being in rotation, but Bottiger is pretty good at telling what the majority of players like/dislike based off various statistics and factors.

 

[Bottiger]

The stats work like tf2stats.net... except that it works. tf2stats.net stopped collecting stats many years ago.

There is nothing left to personal opinion or shortcomings with our private stats system if that is what you are asking. It records all public TF2 servers in existence.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Does this guy/gal have experience playing vsh or understand it well? How many hours?
Do the stats consider the time of day? Of course the server drops 10 people on Military Area if its 1 am on a workday. This server has drop-off at certain hours and people often join EU VSH does the stats calculate that?
What if it goes from Military Area to Weaponsdepot to some easy map for hale/no hp kits? The maps have playstyles and if a few maps are similar in styles and then you switch said styles then yes its a expected drop off.
What if popular players leave a server and others get bored and leave as well? Is all that the maps fault?
What is the problem with accepting these maps I presented? Point the mistakes out and don't treat it like a popularity contest, treat it for its quality.
The way you guys talk about the stats I just have a hard time accepting them meow I'm sorry. Like step back and just think 'is it a good vs. saxton hale map' if yes then what is the problem?

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

I'm sorry if I'm getting frustrated White Moose kinda triggered me with his lack of actual reasoning earlier. I thank you guys for looking at this thread.

 

[Bottiger]

Does this guy/gal have experience playing vsh or understand it well? How many hours?

The stats are recorded by a program. It isn't being written down by a person.

Do the stats consider the time of day? Of course the server drops 10 people on Military Area if its 1 am on a workday.

This doesn't matter because all maps have an equal chance to be randomly selected during dead hours. Actually, the popular maps have a higher chance of being on the server when the server dies, but that is more than offset by the fact that it was full of players during peak hours.