Discussion: Rule Breaking Enticement

[Defibyoulater]

Just wanted to open some discussion on skial rule enticment or entrapping. By that I mean trying to coax other players into breaking the rules. Just laying out some questions here which can be answered by both regulars and admins of course.

Is it punishable? An example would be if guy #1 over mic said in a server "Everyone in chat type alex is a stupid blank," (I think we all know where that goes). And then guy #2 and guy #3 type out a racial slurs: can guy #1 be held accountable for enciting the racial slurs? Is it a good method of luring out players more immediately who would be a threat to skial peace in the furture / has an admin ever used enticement to lure a potential rule-breaker out? Should it be more appropriate to enact enticment, or should there be an actual rule against it?

I guess the overall question is, since it is wrong to have people break rules, but is it also potentially a certain way of helping admins sort out rule breakers faster?

Note: This isn't meant to be a suggestion (maybe, not yet) just open talk relating to the issue.

 

[Sargent¥]

This is a good one. But there would be fault on both ends (lurer and the lured) depending on the scenario. I'm going to use your example and then a few of my own.

Firstly, let's start with your perspective of the one trying to lure out the rulebreakers. In your scenario, said individual is trying to make other people say the n word. Under most circumstances, that is frowned upon. I would discourage it but it isn't against our rules so no punishment would be followed unless he says the word as well. You do bring up an interesting point, encouraging rulebreakers should be punishable as it's not too different from advertising hacks, just will result in less server issues.

Moving on to the perspective of the lured. Punishing for this may be debatable but in the end, it's a choice of yours to make, unless there is a legitimate threat, I'll use a phrase Skial has been using for years: "You are liable for any and all actions that occur on your account". In terms of context, because this rule is so common, I wouldn't excuse someone for typing it because it's impossible to press your chat toggle key and accidentally type the n word, much less so if it's the full phrase.

In terms of the lurer, I can think of only one case where they are not at fault and that is requesting someone who has the technology to play a certain song over the microphone as this is borderline encouragement but just a request so if this were to ever become a rule, I'd skip over this case.

Going back to the lured, not all cases are at their fault. If you remember a while back, the roof at stage 3 barnblitz was exploitable as one could build a sentry up there. Let's say someone did that and built a teleporter and encouraged other engineers to do it. Reading the chat, a new players takes the teleporter to the roof. As a new player, the mindset is "monkey see, monkey do". So if the engineer see a place to build, especially a new one, he'll build there. It looks like a normal roof and just a difficult place to reach so I wouldn't entirely blame the lured in this case.

Moving on to admins doing it. That would be extremely awful, encouraging people to break rules as an admin and then punishing people for doing it would be asking to get fired, I can't possibly think of a scenario where it wouldn't look bad on Skial. Imagine you're working in a factory and you're boss tells you to push the big red button that shuts down all the machines. You do it and then he says "you're fired for pushing the red button". If there was actual evidence of that, the boss would immediately lose his job and the company would lose reputation.

Regardless, the act itself can't be looked well upon as you're basically letting prisoners out of jail and give them a gun, it's not going to end nicely depending on the prisoner as some may return, some may have no idea what to do with it and some will be making a trip back to jail, that's my insight.

 

[Meowcenary]

We don't want anyone trying to bait people into breaking the rules but if someone is trying to do exactly that I don't think we would silence/ban them for it. At least I assume we wouldn't, I dunno what other admins think of this

Players are in control of their own actions is my view on it.

 

[DaivdBaekr]

Is it punishable? An example would be if guy #1 over mic said in a server "Everyone in chat type alex is a stupid blank," (I think we all know where that goes). And then guy #2 and guy #3 type out a racial slurs: can guy #1 be held accountable for enciting the racial slurs?

No

Is it a good method of luring out players more immediately who would be a threat to skial peace in the furture

Skial doesn't benefit from having more people silenced or banned. Whoever doesn't read the public and heavily-advertised rules page and breaks a rule gets held accountable when the time comes, anyway.

has an admin ever used enticement to lure a potential rule-breaker out?

No

Should it be more appropriate to enact enticment

No

or should there be an actual rule against it?

It hasn't been a problem so no.

I guess the overall question is, since it is wrong to have people break rules, but is it also potentially a certain way of helping admins sort out rule breakers faster?

It isn't helping.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

What Baek said.
I don't even know where to begin on this can of worms...
Baiters and trolls are going to be around no matter what, so there's no reason to even try to disallow baiting; it is what it is (the Internet). We've got Rules against the serious offenses; anything else is excessive. Case-in-point: write an addition to the Rules about baiting that is concise enough to make it absolutely clear what is meant to everyone reading it in a sentence or less. That task alone is more trouble than any benefit a rule about it would be worth, not to mention trying to get it included, read, understood and followed. There is absolutely no practical way or reason to even have an official stance on baiting.
tl;dr
Everyone makes their choices, so let them have enough rope with which to hang themselves if they so choose. Bait happens (quote me)

 

[Bree]

In my opinion both Lurer and Lured should get punished

 

[T-Wayne]

Ask a question on jailbreak what n-word is banned on Skial for possibly giving out a freeday. Legit.
https://www.skial.com/threads/admin-app-pedro-the-fabulous.70226/#post-709185

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

I brought up this exact issue in an admin application and everyone spammed me with dumb ratings and called me a troll

 

[Meowrisa]

Imo this is obvious.
The people who break the rules get the punishment. Who coerced who doesnt matter in the slightest; though doing it is a stupid, cancer thing to do.

 

[Cream Tea]

Imo this is obvious.
The people who break the rules get the punishment. Who coerced who doesnt matter in the slightest; though doing it is a stupid, cancer thing to do.

This, at the end of the day you are in control of what you say or do. Just because somebody asks you to do it doesn't mean you always should.

 

[Renegade]

If someone is pushing someone else to break a rule, they should get at least a warning. Tell that person to stop doing it. If they continue or someone listens to them and breaks a rule, then the person luring should get punished and the one who broke the rule should simply get a warning, depending on which rule they broke. If they hacked or scammed or something, then that's a different story. But if it's a general server rule, they should only get a warning for that since someone baited them into doing it.

 

[Sharky!]

No. There's always the argument that will come after of "I wouldn't have done it if he hadn't told me to." In fact, in real life, entrapment makes most-to-all cases of criminal accusations null and void.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

If someone is pushing someone else to break a rule, they should get at least a warning. Tell that person to stop doing it. If they continue or someone listens to them and breaks a rule, then the person luring should get punished and the one who broke the rule should simply get a warning, depending on which rule they broke. If they hacked or scammed or something, then that's a different story. But if it's a general server rule, they should only get a warning for that since someone baited them into doing it.

At that point, the game and the Rules themselves could be argued to be temptations to break them, which is absolutely retarded. What would a warning do anyway besides undermine our current punishment system; you want to have like ten admins per server on 24/7 to be semantic over nothing?
Theory is nice, but you can't practically apply it. You can't.

 

[Fairnessplease]

I tried telling on Pedro's app that encouraging others to breaking rules is not admin worthy; LO AND BEHOLD, 24 dumb rates. My post was not dumb was honest and peaceful.

 

[Kyle]

I tried telling on Pedro's app that encouraging others to breaking rules is not admin worthy; LO AND BEHOLD, 24 dumb rates. My post was not dumb was honest and peaceful.

 

[White Moose]

perhaps they could wait until a problem of that matter arises and decide from there? because enticing someone to break a rule
here some background

The term ‘enticement’ refers to the act or practice of enticing, alluring, or tempting. It is an act by which one person leads or moves another by persuasion or influence, as to some action or state of mind.

Entice means to wrongfully solicit, persuade, procure, allure, attract, coax, or seduce, or to lure, induce, attempt, incite, or persuade a person to do a thing. [United States v. Joseph, 542 F.3d 13, 17 (2d Cir. 2008)]. ‘Entice’ is a term of common usage and courts generally look to the dictionary for their common definitions. The term has plain and ordinary meanings. Persuade, induce, and entice are in effect synonyms. [United States v. Broxmeyer, 616 F.3d 120 (2d Cir. 2010)].

If its against the law I personally think it should apply here. But hey, it's the internet. anything happens on the internet.

 

[Bree]

In my opinion both Lurer and Lured should get punished

why 4 disagrees and dumb, "in my opinion" if you want to get triggered go to reddit, thats my opinion, not yurs to judge than you very mooch

 

[Bree]

We don't want anyone trying to bait people into breaking the rules but if someone is trying to do exactly that I don't think we would silence/ban them for it. At least I assume we wouldn't, I dunno what other admins think of this

Players are in control of their own actions is my view on it.

i think they should be punished, as younger people might see them saying/doing it and might get fooled since they are young and dumb witted

 

[Cream Tea]

why 4 disagrees and dumb, "in my opinion" if you want to get triggered go to reddit, thats my opinion, not yurs to judge than you very mooch

Putting "in my opinion" before what you say doesn't automatically make you immune to judgement by others.